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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 23rd August 2010 20:19
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I hope I've done the right thing here ...
Regular readers will know that I have enjoyed the Ducati hugely, and have hooned about on it for the last year, shredding the tyres and having a whale of a time. It was going to be a 'keeper' (aren't they all when you first get them?). But ...
Mrs Dog and I spent a couple of weeks in France in September, and every campsite we stopped at there seemed to be some Brit bikers on their way through to somewhere. Strangely, we always seemed to have a beer with them at some point (I wonder how that happened?) and the wives were always telling Mrs Dog how great it was, touring Europe on the back seat of a bike.
So, on the long drive back to the ferry, we got into a conversation. She had always resisted my pleading to take the bike next time, but this time she showed an interest - as in "could we do it on the Ducati?" Well, knock me down with a feather! Once we stated getting into detail about what we could bring, and where it could all possibly go - the shoe problem, mainly - it became clear that the good old Duke wasn't in the running. Fine for a solo trip with a tail pack and rucksack, but for two people, one of whom needs a Pickfords van for her personal effects when staying away for a weekend, it wasn't going to work. If it's going to happen, it's going to happen on a touring bike. End of. I guess she must be worth it, because the Duke went on eBay when we got back, sold for a decent price, and now I am on the hunt for a proper touring motorbicycle.
Anyone help me out with a bit of advice here? My requirements (in no particular order of importance after the first) are:
* pillion comfort (Mrs Dog has a bad back - the Duke was the only bike she has ever been comfy on)
* fixed luggage capacity
* can cruise at 90-100 for long periods
* handling
* quality and reliability
* style
I have more or less settled on a Honda Pan European as the best compromise for my needs. Not terribly exciting, but hugely competent. The ST1100 is within my price range, and even an early or ex-police ST1300 if I'm lucky. I've read all the reviews I can find (thanks for those magazines RoadHoover - much appreciated) and it seems the best so far.
But you guys are bound to know better! Any ideas, folks?
--
2003 ST1300 Pan Euro
1995 Yam XT600E
http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 23rd August 2010 20:19
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Bad for to reply to your own posts, I know, but ...
I went to see a Honda St1300 today and bought it. 2003, white, ex-Strathclyde police, 40k, restored to civilian spec, fullish history, new tyres and a year's MoT. I paid exactly what I got for the GT1000, so the only cost was the eBay fees. I rode it home in the driving rain and northerly winds that covered the bottom half of Wales today - 150 miles of M5, M4 and A40.
First impressions:
- weather protection brilliant (wore my light summer gloves and they were only damp)
- enough power for any reasonable purposes (the roll-on in top gear from any speed is amazing)
- comfy as a fireside chair (couldn't keep my pipe lit, though)
- smoother than any bike I have ever ridden
- handling is fabulous - rock steady at silly lean angles and feels like a much lighter bike
- 95 in the p*ssing rain seemed like 50 on any other bike
Bad bits - the lecky screen doesn't work, although the seller gave me a working mechanism that he intended to fit. Looks quite a big job, though. And there is a fair amount of wind noise in the old helmet - although that may get better when I get the screen at a more suitable height.
Best bits - The "White Pan Man" effect, where everyone suddenly slows down when you appear in their mirrors, and the traffic parts like the Red Sea when Moses went walkabout. One guy in a black BMW even drove onto the grass verge of the A40 at about 50 mph to let me past - he nearly lost it, so I didn't hang around to find out what he thought when he realised.
I'm pretty sure I've done the right thing. Well pleased. France 2009 - bring it on!
--
2003 ST1300 Pan Euro
1995 Yam XT600E
http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 16th May 2010 15:09
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| Ah, so THAT explains the vanishing Ducati. 'Tis a far, far nobler thing...hope you don't regret it, but it sounds like you're happy with your purchase. Certainly can't fault the ST for touring purposes - 8 billion satisfied owners can't all be wrong - and the 1300 is supposed to be the better option, so it sounds like you did okay there on the cash-free swap. They're a bit on the hefty side for me, though, especially if I were planning to use one for day-to-day stuff. And I might have a little concern about the plod reports of high-speed weaves - I have an idea most of the traffic forces returned them to Honda fairly sharpish and the ones that didn't put a 100mph limit on use (getting back to the station late for coffee and doughnuts, obviously). Not a problem if you're not on the Autobahn, perhaps, but be careful when you do open it up! I would have thrown the Super Blackbird and the FJ1300 into the suggestions pot as well, but probably won't bother now! Bit of a shame Mrs Dog didn't bite on the idea of learning to ride, but maybe a lengthy tour would cure that...especially if it means being able to carry twice as many shoes. Time to buy a white Shoei and a Sam Browne belt?
>> ex silens nox noctis <<
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 23rd August 2010 20:19
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[quote]endemoniada_88 (06/10/2008)
Ah, so THAT explains the vanishing Ducati. 'Tis a far, far nobler thing...hope you don't regret it, but it sounds like you're happy with your purchase.
Certainly can't fault the ST for touring purposes - 8 billion satisfied owners can't all be wrong - and the 1300 is supposed to be the better option, so it sounds like you did okay there on the cash-free swap. They're a bit on the hefty side for me, though, especially if I were planning to use one for day-to-day stuff. And I might have a little concern about the plod reports of high-speed weaves - I have an idea most of the traffic forces returned them to Honda fairly sharpish and the ones that didn't put a 100mph limit on use (getting back to the station late for coffee and doughnuts, obviously). Not a problem if you're not on the Autobahn, perhaps, but be careful when you do open it up!
I would have thrown the Super Blackbird and the FJ1300 into the suggestions pot as well, but probably won't bother now!
Bit of a shame Mrs Dog didn't bite on the idea of learning to ride, but maybe a lengthy tour would cure that...especially if it means being able to carry twice as many shoes.
Time to buy a white Shoei and a Sam Browne belt?[/quote]
Yes, I hope I don't regret it too - I can get sentimental about bikes, and the Duke was a stunner, but I didn't have it long enough to get really attached. Now the Guzzi V50 ... I stll think about that one, sold in - er - 1987?
The Pan won't be an everyday bike, and you are quite right that it is a heavy lump. The XT is pretty much the ideal commuting bike for me, so the Pan will be for high days and holidays. Plus, of course, trips like Brightona become feasible without the expense of a week with the osteopath when I get home. The stability issue is a concern. In fact, I suspect that the force that mine come from (Strathclyde) got rid of all their 1300 Pans, and I have got one of them. I've done a lot of reading into this and my conclusions are:
1. The dreaded 'Pan weave' exists - the article in Ride magazine proved it
2. Not every bike or owner suffers it
3. It tends to happen at high speeds and odd load conditions.
I suspect that the root cause is the steeper steering angle compared to the ST1100. It makes the bike much more chuckable, but perhaps puts it on the limits of stability at high speed. A certain combination of added-up minor issues (such as head bearing or swingarm wear, or tyres, or road surface) tips it over the edge in a way that didn't happen with the 1100 because the older bike had a much more laid back frame. This would explain why some bikes suffer, while others can cruise at 140 for hours on end, two-up with camping gear, and not wobble at all. And also why Honda are so reluctant to put it right - replacing the frame on a squillion 1300s would be a pretty big job. As far as I understand it, if the weave starts it is possible to back off and it goes away, so I'm not unduly concerned. I might cruise at ineresting speeds myself, but I am unlikely to get much into three figures with Mrs Dog on the back. One of the things she noticed during her 'test sit' was that the pillion can clearly see the clocks over the rider's shoulder. Oh dear ...
And yes, the white helmet (flip-front for authenticity) and the hi-viz jacket have been considered. But judging by the way the traffic parted for me on Sunday, I think there may be no need.
By the way, I did seriously consider a Blackbird, but the pillion looked just like the Bandit's, and Mrs Dog wasn't too keen on that.
--
2003 ST1300 Pan Euro
1995 Yam XT600E
http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 16th May 2010 15:09
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| Certainly sounds like a believable diagnosis. They did quite considerably lighten and sharpen the 1300 to improve nimbleness, possibly a little too much. Out of curiosity, I had a quick web search and there are a whole lot of theories and attempted (some claimed successful) fixes with tyre types, pressures, screen height, bush replacements, tightening engine and bar mountings...so I'd have to agree it definitely seems fundamental to the design and exacerbated by specific factors on any given bike. There were some reviews that claimed the weave doesn't occur if speed is upped by 20-30mph (gyroscopic stability settling the whole plot back down, perhaps). There's also an awful lot of people out there who have never experienced a problem - which makes sense, I guess, if it was a guaranteed widowmaker, Honda wouldn't have put it into production. Of course, it's not unheard-of for Honda to deny any shortcomings and then fix them anyway - VFR750 making up for the chocolate cams on the VF, anyone - so I'd bet that if the rumoured ST1400 does break cover, it'll have a frame like the Forth Bridge. Like any bad behaviour, it's okay and manageable if it's predictable, hopefully yours'll just be one that doesn't suffer from it. Sounds like the pillion brake should keep you out of trouble a lot of the time anyway! Blackbirds look nicer (imo) and are fun to ride, but shaft drive on a supertourer's a pretty compelling argument. As, of course, is the boss's comfort... Are you coming down to Brightona, then?
>> ex silens nox noctis <<
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 23rd August 2010 20:19
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[quote]endemoniada_88 (07/10/2008)
Blackbirds look nicer (imo)and are fun to ride, but shaft drive on a supertourer's a pretty compelling argument. As, of course, is the boss's comfort...
Are you coming down to Brightona, then?[/quote]
Talking of maintenance, it's a while since I had a shaftie, and I'd forgotten how nice they are. I know looking after a chain is no big deal, but the thought that there is nothing to do there but change the oil every 24k miles is pleasant. Maintenance seems pretty simple overall, and I'll probably do my own. I've not had bucket-over-shim valves before, but it's only a check every 24k as well, and if I chicken out of doing them, it's not going to be a regular occurrence. The linked brakes look a total nightmare to bleed (three calipers with two bleed systems each, plus one or perhaps two proportional valves) but I'll give it a go. The official workshop manual says you have to use a bleeding device, but I've always got by with the traditional plastic pipe and jam jar, so I will try that first.
Brightona? I thought that had just been? But next time, why not?
--
2003 ST1300 Pan Euro
1995 Yam XT600E
http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/
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Supreme Being
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Aha! Just checked the dates, and it is next weekend. Bollards - I'm working that day. Next time, though.
--
2003 ST1300 Pan Euro
1995 Yam XT600E
http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/
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Supreme Being
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Last Login: 16th May 2010 15:09
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| Brake bleeding's one of those jobs I really don't enjoy, although it does get better if there are two of you. Otherwise it's not usually particularly difficult, just tedious and time-consuming. Don't envy you the extra pipework on the linked system! I usually get my friendly dealer to fit nice shiny Goodridge hoses - especially if the stock front hoses have that irritating single line with an over-mudguard splitter on them. That gets me out of one brake service at least...! What do you reckon to the linked system in operation, then? It took some getting used to on an early Super Blackbird: felt really strange the way the front and rear settled quite gracefully together when I kept expecting the nose to dive. I don't normally use the rear brake much at all, and wasn't keen to experiment with dabbing it in corners knowing that it'd pull on the front as well. I suspect I'd've got used to it in time, but only had the bike on loan...
>> ex silens nox noctis <<
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Supreme Being
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endemoniada_88 (09/10/2008)
Brake bleeding's one of those jobs I really don't enjoy, although it does get better if there are two of you. Otherwise it's not usually particularly difficult, just tedious and time-consuming. Don't envy you the extra pipework on the linked system! I usually get my friendly dealer to fit nice shiny Goodridge hoses - especially if the stock front hoses have that irritating single line with an over-mudguard splitter on them. That gets me out of one brake service at least...! What do you reckon to the linked system in operation, then? It took some getting used to on an early Super Blackbird: felt really strange the way the front and rear settled quite gracefully together when I kept expecting the nose to dive. I don't normally use the rear brake much at all, and wasn't keen to experiment with dabbing it in corners knowing that it'd pull on the front as well. I suspect I'd've got used to it in time, but only had the bike on loan... I've never had a problem with bike brakes in the past, or cars come to that, until I worked on the Series 2 Land Rover I am currently restoring. I have replaced every single component including pipes and all cylinders, and I cannot get a hard pedal - despite every tweak and technique known to the internet and several very knowledgeable friends. That has knocked my confidence a bit! It's the extra stuff on the linked system that would concern me - bleeding each caliper twice using a different lever, and then the centre valve(s) - there's a lot of potential for c*ck-ups. Honda give the method using a brake bleeding tool in the official manual (not sure whether it is a pressure or vacuum system) but I have always used the traditional method with bikes in the past and never had a problem. We'll see. I have to confess to rather liking linked brakes. I had the system on my Guzzi V50 (pedal - rear and one front disc; lever - second front disc) and once I had got used to it I loved it. I used just the pedal most of the time, which leaves your hands free for steering and stuff, and just brought the lever in for quick stops. I think on a more sporty bike I prefer having the individual control of separate circuits, but for a less focused bike I think a linked system has something to offer. I haven't ridden the Pan much yet, but I'm quite happy with it so far. There is some dive, especially using the front lever, but not as much as you would expect from such a heavy bike. (I would find no dive at all, like with a telelever, a bit odd, to be honest.) Using either brake seems to give stable and controlled braking - the front a little sharper, the rear gentler and more level - which is pretty much what you want. Certainly with about 350kg of bike and rider, on soaking wet roads, and not too familiar with the bike, I was using the brakes fairly enthusiastically with no brown-trouser moments. Using the rear to calm down the speed mid-corner was completely secure (just like the Guz, in fact) with no hint of trouble from the front. Good idea on the Goodridge hoses! I may well do that. I plane to do a full catch-up service soon, and changing brake fluid is one of the items, so I will find out how easy or hard it is soon enough.
--
2003 ST1300 Pan Euro
1995 Yam XT600E
http://goingfastgettingnowhere.blogspot.com/
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