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RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

endemoniada_88 — Tue, 28 Oct 2008 01:43:27 GMT

Yep, brilliant quote. Just about conjures up the whole deal with biking in two short paragraphs.

With simulator technology being what it is these days, I can't help but think it would be a positive improvement to the driving test to put learners behind the wheel/in the saddle of various different vehicles so they do get some idea of what a driver/rider can and can't see, how fast a bike can accelerate, how long it takes a truck to slow down from 70 and so on. I'm sure it would be expensive to install and maintain, but, hey - when it comes to safety arguments, "if it saves just one life it's worth it"*. Or is that only when it works to the detriment of the general public?

* Actually, according to the Criminal Injuries Compensation board, if it saves just one life it's actually worth about £50,000. Which would be a much more reasonable guideline as to the value-for-money element of elf'n'safety lunacy.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Black Dog — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 09:46:24 GMT

Yes, transport Darwinism. I like it. Put everyone onto a 50cc moped for a full 12 months. Those that are still alive at the end get their car licenses back and are allowed to drive again.

There's a serious point here, though. Back in the 50s/60s, most people (well, most men anyway) owned a bike at some stage, purely because they couldn't afford a car. A lot of guys had a bike from age 16, through their early years getting to work and going on holiday, and often only got a car when they got married and a baby was on the way (some kept the faith and added a third wheel, but we won't discuss that). The end result was that nearly all car drivers had some 2-wheel experience and realised that it really mattered if they didn't check for bikes when pulling out of a junction. As a consequence, bikes were generally treated with some respect.

Nowadays, a learner driver generally jumps into something which is air-conditioned, with power steering, comfortable, with excellent crash protection and a decent stereo, and driving is easier than it ever has been. They start their driving careers completely insulated from the outside world, and continue to behave as if everything else on the road is just a movie played for them.

I have a nice car I can use if I need to, but I still prefer the bike, cos riding it feels real. In my head is a loop, playing those wonderful words from the start of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance:

[i]
You see things vacationing on a motorcycle in a way that is completely different from any other. In a car you're always in a compartment, and because you're used to it you don't realize that through that car window everything you see is just more TV. You're a passive observer and it is all moving by you boringly in a frame.

On a cycle the frame is gone. You're completely in contact with it all. You're in the scene, not just watching it anymore, and the sense of presence is overwhelming. That concrete whizzing by five inches below your foot is the real thing, the same stuff you walk on, it's right there, so blurred you can't focus on it, yet you can put your foot down and touch it anytime, and the whole thing, the whole experience, is never removed from immediate consciousness.
[/i]

That says it all for me.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

endemoniada_88 — Fri, 24 Oct 2008 00:24:13 GMT

I thought all the income from that was going on paying the banks (with our money, at low interest) to lend us it back (at high interest, obviously)...?

Plus, if everyone went for bikes, there'd be hordes of dead ex-car drivers who'd just discovered the hard way that they shouldn't answer the phone, or why it is you want to check both ways at junctions before pulling out. From a purely Darwinist point of view, I'm not necessarily opposed to that, only to the raft of new safety legislation that would inevitably follow!

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

rebelman — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:29:13 GMT

I think we should put our point accross as a new group, Association of safe,sound,economical saddle riders up standing. (Took me a while to think of that one and now don't know why I did) That will be ASSES R US then for putting up with the crap the local and national government puts out about motorbikes and cycles in general. Still if we all went for bikes there would not be the income from those 4x4s n other gas gusslers/large vehicles to make our roads better would there?

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Black Dog — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:38:10 GMT

Yes, bikes are, in the popular mind, both "fun" and "dangerous". Doing something because it's fun is clearly a sign of an enemy of all things multicultural and diverse and hand-knitted, and we all know how we deal with things that are "dangerous", don't we children? We ban them.

I think of the Puritans, who banned bear-baiting in the 17C. Not because of any harm that befell the bear - they couldn't care less about that - but because people enjoyed it.

Just imagine - all the commuters in London getting everywhere at 30mph with no delays, and everyone doing 120mpg. Congestion gone, pollution down, journey times down - it can't be allowed!

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

rebelman — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 19:32:49 GMT

Must admit that should I have a need to visit the local shoping centre (Central Milton Keynes) I take the Trumpet, easy to get there and free easy parking. The normal cost and problems with car parking are just too much.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

endemoniada_88 — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:32:00 GMT

Controversial - that almost sounds like the beginnings of an Integrated Transport Policy!

ITPs, of course, only actually exist in that deranged fantasy world of pre-election manifestos...once in power, it's quite obvious that no government can actually afford to fix the problems with public transport, shift haulage back to the railways/canals, or do without the tax on private cars. Bikes - well - there's always the sneaking suspicion that bikers are having fun, which needs to be stamped out on general principle.

Remember the ghastly Blair on his NEC photo-opportunity, sitting astride a bike (CBR600, I think) and pledging to put "powered two-wheelers" at the heart of his transport plans? There was a man who was at least consistent in his approach to election promises...

Or Steve "Many Mistresses" Norris rollling out something similar for the Tories just before John Major's stint?

Before that, of course, we were still in the era when pubs put up "No Dogs or Bikers" signs, there was still empty road in the cities and nobody really needed our votes, so it was okay to ignore us...!

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Black Dog — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 18:24:15 GMT

That's a bit of good news. Go Boris!

Mind you, I am always surprised at how successive Governments have ignored bikes as a transport solution. Just think - if half of all city commuters rode a 50cc scoot, not only would pollution be massively reduced, but also congestion wouldn't be a problem.

Oh, hang on - congestion charges make money. As you were.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

rebelman — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 14:44:08 GMT

Just been reading that Boris has indeed given the go-ahead for the Bikes to use bus lanes from the start of 2009. Read in the cars bit on Yahoo. Lets hope many more councils take this line and let Bikes have more freedom. You never know maybe more people will get back on bike as a consequence.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

rebelman — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:53:49 GMT

Now where can I buy one of those old fashioned ticket machines like the ones from the red buses. Could just put a £ sign in front of the 2 an 6 or thrupence for dispensed with ease ticket fines! Rubish dropping could start at £3.00 for a small indiscretion (A fag butt) upwards, swearing in public in front of children £100.00 and anything else I find personally offensive or stupid it would be up to me to make up the fine- same as the government then. Cars parked on the pavement say £150.00. I could be rich beyond my dreams in no time!

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Black Dog — Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:34:16 GMT

endemoniada_88 (08/10/2008)

I have this theory Britain would make a better cold-war-era East Germany than East Germany managed, given the number of people champing at the bit to enforce meaningless, petty rules and shop their neighbours for real or imagined sins.

And a government eager to invent and enforce new laws daily to make us behave like the perfect human beings it knows we ought to be.

endemoniada_88 (08/10/2008)

I also have a theory that one could make a fortune investing in a peaked cap and a portable printer, then just hanging around down town on a Saturday handing out made-up spot fines to passers-by. They'd never know you weren't one of about 80000 different quasi-official types enforcing obscure and unpublished local bye-laws...

Now that's not such a bad idea ...

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

endemoniada_88 — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:41:53 GMT

Hopeless optimism, I'm afraid. I figure if you ask enough logical questions someone, somewhere might see the sense in it...there again, I work in an outsourced government IT department, so I'm used to disappointment on the sensible front!

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Black Dog — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 20:05:25 GMT

Endo, you're using logic. This is local government we are talking about.

If it works, do the opposite. And if it makes life easier for people, ban it. We're not here to enjoy ourselves, y'know.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

endemoniada_88 — Wed, 08 Oct 2008 02:00:12 GMT

Not much of a reply, is it?

Worth asking the bloke, given that Boris gave the go-ahead (despite Red Ken's botched trial) for it to happen in London in May this year and that the Bristol "trial" has now been going since 1995, exactly what he's waiting for in terms of research? Or even, since they're allowed to make up their own minds, exactly what is stopping them trialling it in Leeds - especially since March 2007, when the Government issued a Traffic Advisory Leaflet (TAL02/07) to Local Authorities that specifically encouraged a more objective assessment to be made of bus lane use by motorcycles?

No, probably not...!

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Trick3003 — Tue, 07 Oct 2008 12:22:10 GMT

Well i have had my reply:

Hi Richard,

Thank you for your email, your enquiry had been passed on to me. I work in road safety dealing specifically with motorcycling and PTW (powered two wheeler) issues in Leeds.

The use of bus lanes by motorcycles in Leeds and West Yorkshire is currently prohibited. There has been work in some regions across the country (most notably London and Bristol) to trial and study the effects if allowing motorcycles to use bus lanes and it is an area of research I'm keeping an eye on.

There has been no national ruling from the Government regarding bus lanes and it has been left to individual authorities to decide whether or not they want to allow motorcycles to use bus lanes in their area.

In those areas of the country where motorcycles are allowed to use bus lanes there should be clear signage stating this at the beginning of the lane. The signs are an amendment of the standard blue bus lane signs and have a motorcycle on them too. In Leeds and within West Yorkshire motorcycles are allowed to use HOV (high occupancy vehicle) or 2+ lanes such as those on the A647 heading into Leeds and on the M606 / M62 junction.

If you'd like further information on events or to be added to the mailing list for our PTW newsletter please contact me directly.

Regards,

Dave Glanville

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Black Dog — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 19:53:20 GMT

Good idea Reb, but I've tried everything on that score. I've showed her 125s till I was sick of looking at them, and even brought a GS500 home for her to have a go on. Nope.

So, megatourer it is. I'll post results in the other thread (under Touring, I think).

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

rebelman — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 15:03:43 GMT

Mr. BD, good to see you from me as well. Duke gone and looking for a cruiser? Should have kept Duke and got Mrs. BD out and about on 125, passed test and on her own Duke!= 2 back packs and two ruck sacks plus throw overs for as many shoes as she wanted to take on her bike LOL

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

endemoniada_88 — Sun, 05 Oct 2008 01:35:45 GMT

Mr Black Dog, how've you been keeping? And what's with the sold Ducati?

Like the "ZanuLabour" description - may have to borrow that one!

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Black Dog — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 17:00:06 GMT

Just to add - I learned to ride in Leeds and went all over on the bike when lived there. You could get anywhere on a bike in those days! Things must have changed a lot. (Mind, the inner ring road was mad even then.)

First ride ever! Picked the C90 up from Watson Cairns in Lower Briggate, and straight into the rush hour traffic - up Briggate, through Sheepscar and back home up Chapeltown Road. No training, no nothing, just a Centurion helmet and PVC gloves. I must have been mad!

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Black Dog — Sat, 04 Oct 2008 16:54:35 GMT

The bikes in bus lanes issue is one of the defining features of Ken Livingstone's rule as London Commissar to me. They did an expensive pilot study, lasting 2 years I think, on the safety of allowing bikes in bus lanes, particularly as if affected pedestrians and the greenie's favourite, pedal bikes. The pilot was terminated just before it ended, with no announcements, and the research findings were buried.

However, a summary of the evidence gathered was leaked to the press. Unsurprisingly, it showed that where motorcycles were allowed in bus lanes, there was no negative effect on cycle casualties and in some areas cycle casualties actually went down. In all cases, motorcycle casualties went down by a large margin. Most people involved seem to think that the research was not heading in the direction that City Hall wanted it to, and that is why it was pulled. Typical ZanuLabor approach - decide the outcome, and then design the research to support it :-)

When these facts were put to representatives of City Hall, the answer was that the research findings were inconclusive as they were incompete - as they would be when you pulled the research, you muppets.

A lot of cities were waiting on London's approach before they took the plunge themselves, so that idea seems to be on the back burner for a while. Let's hope Boris has a more realistic and bike-friendly approach. He's quite willing to get rid of al the bendy buses, after all.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Trick3003 — Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:15:03 GMT

Right, so i have emailed the local councils Transport Department asking wether or not it has gone ahead, or will go ahead.

If i get a reply i will post it here.

Ta,

Rich

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Wilftop — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 17:33:40 GMT

It was being trialed in London too, but I don't think they've let it continue.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Trick3003 — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 07:58:56 GMT

Blimey, hard work eh? I'll contact the local council and ask. Doesn't seem too hopeful.

The reason why i ask is that in Leeds to get any where near the city centre (where i work) you either have to go on the ring road (which is a A(m) road, not good for 125 learners!), or round a really really long winded one way system full of prats! There is a direct route, but this is reserved for busses and taxis!

i hope they pull the proverbial finger out!

Thanks

Rich

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

endemoniada_88 — Wed, 01 Oct 2008 00:38:27 GMT

I seem to recall it being piloted in Bristol quite successfully. But in the true spirit of modern Britain, more cities fitted cameras to catch (and fine) people using bus lanes than actually allowed them to be used by bikes. Of course, that does promote the attitude that if you're somewhere where they can't be bothered to enforce it (ie by fitting cameras), it must be fair game.

Worth checking what the rules are in your area - not all bus lanes are necessarily subject to blanket bans for other vehicles and almost all have restricted hours of service. These should be displayed on plates at the start of the lane (0730 - 1800, unfortunately, is quite common).

We have a lot of cycle lanes around here and most of them are advisory rather than mandatory (broken white line rather than solid). That means vehicles are allowed to use them if their route is otherwise barred: as far as I can tell that means bikes can legally use them for filtering, subject to the usual guidance given in the Highway Code. Never seen a test case prosecuted, anyway, so I'd be happy to argue the toss with a traffic cop if it came to that (might even point out that it says "Bicycle" quite clearly on my tax disc and V5, as well).

Filtering through traffic is best done on the outside, though. It gives you a lot more options than being crowded into the gutter and a much clearer view of what is going on in all the carriageways and junctions. It might seem suicidal at first, but you soon get used to the roadcraft of it - and it works more or less everywhere, without having to worry if you're about to be clobbered for £120 for violating some CCTV controlled system you didn't even know existed.

RE: Bikes and Bus Lanes

Mazz — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:00:07 GMT

Still a massive grey area I'm afraid. Some cities have allowed it, but the majority haven't. Check with your local council before trying it as you could end up with a fine!

Bikes and Bus Lanes

Trick3003 — Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:23:48 GMT

So i have been doing a bit of reading on the old googleometer and found that they have been considering and trialing the use of bus lanes for bikes.

Did this ever go ahead?

If so it will make getting around Leeds alot easier on L Plates!

Thanks

Rich